HR + Pace | 80/20 Endurance

HR + Pace

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  • #9372
    bs
    Participant

    I’ve read through the online docs, as well as searched the forum, so forgive me if this has already been answered! (I feel this is must be an ultra-common question.)

    I’m new to training with zones, and running again after a very long break. I chose the Marathon 1 80/20 package to train for a 50k, and chose heart rate zones because I thought they would be a fun way to measure.

    I did the threshold pace workout a few day ago so I’ve got that. I’m going to do my LTHR today.

    Questions:

    1. I’d like to play with pace based runs as well. Is there a way to have both options included in my daily workout?

    2. I’ve got a Stryd on the way to measure power. How should I integrate or play with this?

    3. Am I thinking about this in the right way? Is there an advantage to sticking with one modality? Because I’m new to zone training, it feels like it would be nice to experiment with each.

    (I’m not including the finger-to-throat hr zone training I did in the 90s ☺️.)

    #9378
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    B. (I can’t bring myself to address you as BS…),

    First, you don’t need to perform two separate threshold tests for Pace and HR. You can capture both in the same test. Whatever your peak 20-minute HR was in the time-trial you did for Pace is your LTHR. Maybe I’m too late and you already did the second test! For your other direct questions:

    1. TP does not provide an elegant solution for this. There are two ways to manage this. First, you can request a copy of the Pace and Power plans for the HR plan you purchased at https://www.8020endurance.com/contact/ Then, you can either load the HR plan when you want the HR version, and load the Pace plan when you want the Pace version. This method ends up building some artifacts in your past workouts.

    Or, our 80/20 Subscriptions provide a solution by giving you access to the complete 80/20 Workout Library directly in TP. Then, you can simply drag and drop the Pace, Power or HR workout for the day into your calendar.

    2. Same as above: either request the Power version of your purchased plan, or use the 80/20 Subscription to access any workout within any format.

    3. Here’s the deal: the structured workout feature is cool, but the primary benefit IMO is the automatic syncing to your device and alerts for when to switch segments intensities. The custom zones are not really necessary. Just memorize your zones. Let’s say you are on the HR workout, but you want to train by Pace. When the device says “Zone 3 161-174bpm” then just use your Pace zones and ignore the HR. Remember, just 4 years ago there was no structured workout feature. Our plans would only dictate “Zone 1, Zone 2…” and you had to choose the unit to manage Zone 2: Pace, Power or HR all on your own. It’s not that hard to memorize all your Pace, Power and HR zones, it was the only way to train just a few years ago!

    David

    #9383
    bs
    Participant

    B. (I can’t bring myself to address you as BS…),

    Haha. The remnants from 2007, when this happened: https://twitter.com/bs. Technically, they ARE my initials!

    First, you don’t need to perform two separate threshold tests for Pace and HR. You can capture both in the same test. Whatever your peak 20-minute HR was in the time-trial you did for Pace is your LTHR. Maybe I’m too late and you already did the second test!

    I followed this guide from https://www.8020endurance.com/intensity-guidelines-for-8020-running/

    “A more accurate test is a 30-minute time trial (covering as much distance as possible in 30 minutes). This is a brutal, but precise method to establish your threshold pace. Begin with a warm-up that consists of 15 minutes of easy jogging with a few 15-second surges at the pace you intend to run for the time trial. Next, run as far as you can in 30 minutes, being careful to avoid starting at a pace that’s too fast to sustain and thus slowing down involuntarily near the end. Your average pace for that 30 minutes is your threshold pace.”

    And then …

    “The simplest way to determine your seven heart-rate based training zones is to back into them through pace. First, follow the guidelines under the Run Pace Section of this article to establish your run pace zones and Threshold Pace (TP).

    The next step is to determine your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate (LTHR) from your TP. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your TP on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR. Now go to the Run and Cycling Heart Rate section of the 80/20 Zone Calculator Zone settings in TrainingPeaks and enter your lactate threshold heart rate. Your seven heart rate training zones will be calculated automatically.”

    My peak heartrate from my TP 30min run is much higher than my leveled HR from the 10min+TP run. What am I missing?

    For the plans, my main confusion is between my TrainingPeaks subscription, an 80/20 subscription, and the trial 2 week plan, which I detailed in an email, but feel free to post any answers to that here that might be helpful to the community!

    #9385
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    B, the former test is the most accurate, the latter is a shorter alternate. Use the 30-minute test for both your LTHR and Threshold Pace. Whatever your average pace is and peak 20-minute over that 30-minutes is your Pace and HR thresholds.

    I hope our comparison chart at https://www.8020endurance.com/compare-options/does a good job of describing the differences between the TrainingPeaks subscription and 8020 Subscription. But, in summary:

    – The TrainingPeaks Premium subscriptions gives you all the benefits of the TrainingPeaks platform (see https://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204074014-Basic-vs-Premium-Athlete-Accounts)

    – The 80/20 Subscriptions includes a TrainingPeaks subscription (Gold Level) in addition to access to all plans (one plan at a time) and all workouts, and a free 80/20 book.

    David

    #9393
    bs
    Participant

    B, the former test is the most accurate, the latter is a shorter alternate. Use the 30-minute test for both your LTHR and Threshold Pace. Whatever your average pace is and peak 20-minute over that 30-minutes is your Pace and HR thresholds.

    Am I misunderstanding the following?

    “The simplest way to determine your seven heart-rate based training zones is to back into them through pace. First, follow the guidelines under the Run Pace Section of this article to establish your run pace zones and Threshold Pace (TP). The next step is to determine your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate (LTHR) from your TP. To do this …

    I read that as:

    1. First do the RP section (either 30min or 20min variant)
    2. Do the 10min + plateau for the LTHR

    FWIW here is my 30min TP run on my treadmill: http://tpks.ws/X3OGRK3QI63CLTI4FEYTRMETSU

    And the run I did for LTHR, where I settled on 155bpm: http://tpks.ws/Y3U6IYPI6RKFLTI4FEYTRMETSU

    Thoughts?

    (re: subscriptions, it was hard for me to keep in my head how TrainingPeaks mixes with 80/20, and which provide what and in what combination 😅)

    #9396
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    B,

    Yep, that’s misleading. We need to make the documentation stronger that you just need to do one test, not two. The “back-in” method is only if you didn’t capture your LTHR from the Pace or Power test. Ideally, one test captures all 3 (if you have a Pace, HR and Power meter, and most people have the first two). Matt and I are actually reviewing the documentation Sunday and I’ll tweak that to make it more clear.

    Regarding subscriptions, maybe I can describe it this way:

    TrainingPeaks is like Amazon Prime Video: a platform to manage multiple content. You pay $120 a year for access to Amazon Prime Video, and $240 a year to access TrainingPeaks. Both Amazon and TrainingPeaks offer many benefits for your subscription.

    But, what if want a movie that is not included with Amazon Prime? You have to buy the movie separately. It’s still managed in your Prime library, and you need Prime to view it, but you purchased it separately. An 80/20 plan is like a movie made by Warner Brothers. No relation to Amazon Prime, but it’s independent content that you can view on Amazon prime. 80/20 is a content provider that is published on the TrainingPeaks platform.

    The 80/20 Subscription combines the TrainingPeaks platform and 80/20 content into a single, discounted payment. Instead of paying $240 a year for TrainingPeaks and then paying for 1, 2, 3, or more plans separately, you pay $29.95 a month and get BOTH TrainingPeaks and access to all 80/20 plans. It’s like Amazon Prime Plus.

    David

    #9402
    bs
    Participant

    Subscriptions I got after pouring over the documentation, and thank you for clarifying here! The Amazon Prime analogy works well.

    And glad I was able to contribute to the documentation process! So, for me, should I take the peak from the 30min or the plateau from the shorter run? They’re quite different.

    #9404
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    I’d for sure take the peak 20 HR from the 30-minute run. It will be more accurate.

    David

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