Time trial and Foundation Runs in hilly area | 80/20 Endurance

Time trial and Foundation Runs in hilly area

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  • #15911
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Hi

    New to forum. Training for a couple of 20km trail races + road marathon in April 2022, using the Marathon level 2 guide in the 80/20 book (rightly or wrongly, jumped to week 4 after a few days of building up with easy runs, so that I finish the programme in time for the marathon, and now on week 5 – going well with some minor problems).

    I need to do a time trial, and so far been using max HR of 190bpm, which I’m aware isn’t the advised means of establishing the zones. One problem is that my living area is very hilly, which poses a problem for time trial. Could I use a low gradient undulating 20min road for this? Would rather do this than talk-test for a few reasons, and just waiting for a hard day when I’ve slept well to do this on.

    Also, because of the hills, I’d rather not spend most time walking and I’m thinking hill training gives specificity for trail runs. I sometimes switch to PE 3-4/10 on hills, rather than HR. Can I factor the hills out of zone on a Foundation/Long Runs as part of the 20%, deducting this from mod-high intensity days (or do more low intensity)?

    My Strava if this could help https://www.strava.com/athletes/19834664

    Thanks in advance.

    #15929
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    R, thanks for posting on the forums!

    Regarding your threshold test, this is where HR has an advantage over Pace, but using Power is still the ultimate answer for hills. Use Power, HR, then Pace in order of preference for that TT.

    RPE is also a fine method for measuring intensity: if you are good at it. Note that we have a complete line of RPE plans at https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/running/marathon/?keyword=80%2F20+Running+RPE&language=en&sort.field=soldCount&sort.dir=desc&index=0 and nearly 300 RPE workouts in our 80/20 Workout Library as part of our Gold or Silver Subscriptions. The advantage of the subscription is that you can switch a workout from HR, to Pace to RPE instantly based on your preference or terrain for the day.

    Yes, you can (and should) adjust total time low and moderate/high intensity based on factors introduced to you in training. We have a section on how to do this this in Chapter 8 of our book 80/20 Triathlon (which still applies to running).

    David

    #15936
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply David. I have no means of measuring power unfortunately, no Stryd and it looks rather expensive.

    Are you suggesting I can still do the TT on hills regardless, still using HR, or is it strict on flats?

    #15947
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    I’m comfortable with you using HR for the TT in hills. It’s the best available choice in your circumstance.

    David

    #16037
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Hi David,

    Could you be so kind to have a peek at my attempt at a field test, to estimate the LTHR please?

    For context, I did the run for at least 20mins, i felt i could have gone for a little while longer (5+mins?)/faster in places; felt probs more than 6/10 effort though. I ran around the 165bpm/threshold up to max to make sure I didn’t burn out too quickly (which happened last time I tried). It’s a little tricky because there’s a gradient; it’s a trail, muddy and rocky in places, so far from scientific conditions! First time doing this so a little unsure if doing it right.

    Think it might be between 165 – 170?

    There’s Strava link above but here’s Garmin, which I figured might be easier:
    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/8112857664?share_unique_id=5

    Many thanks for any help.

    #16049
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    Pete, any chance you can share this from TrainingPeaks? Garmin Connect just does not have the analysis to get this with precision. Actually, that’s not fair. Garmin Connect has better analysis than TP in many respects, what I need Garmin Connect just does not do, but TP does.

    This looks to be the plateau test, yes? You’re just validating your pace for a given level HR or HR for a given pace.

    David

    #16052
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Sure David, can only try. This what you mean?

    http://tpks.ws/V2JSF63KTH3SPTI4FEYTRMETSU

    #16060
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    Perfect I can read that. Your LTHR is 171bpm.

    David

    #16063
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Thanks David! I appreciate your time. This is brilliant.

    Just curious for next time, did you take the reading from the end/30min of the Peak Heart Rate chart? I might subscribe to TP if it’s as clear and simple as that.

    No idea what 171bpm means for personal fitness, but looks like I’ve been running around Z1 for a couple of weeks. Has that been a bit of a waste? (I have been able to heal through an injury at that rate though so not complaining)

    #16081
    FatDad
    Participant

    Pete –

    Just a couple of thoughts on how to burn some cash! 1. – Stryd is good. I live in London (UK) and run flat road, steep hills, trails and a mix of all in the same run. Stryd helps me avoid over/under exerting on varying terrain – and I now have had fewer injuries than when using Pace alone. Also Stryd works better for short durations than HR – so eg 1 min sprints with 2 mins rest – my HR is high all the time! I know it looks a lot for what looks like a tiny piece of plastic, but to me it is worth the price of 2 pairs of shoes. They have a 30 day money back guarantee and when I was looking they had it cheaper if you signed up to their subscription service (overall and upfront cost was lower).

    2. Subscribing to TP Premium is also worth considering. IIRC you get a month free when you purchase an 8020 plan. I find the ability to re-schedule runs good and the ability to add my own routines is handyy for strength training and simultaneous testing to get my zones. I think you can purchase a sub through 8020 at a reduced rate.

    #16087
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    TP has the ability to quickly identify the peak 10, 20, or 30-minute segment of any pace, power or HR segment. I would not get TP premium just for that feature alone, but if you have a desire to analyze workouts at all, TP Premium is worth it for many other features.

    Not a waste that you’ve been in Zone 1 instead of Zone 2. Low is low.

    David

    #16161
    Roaches_Pete
    Participant

    Tempted to get a Stryd, not only for hills but also because of notable changes in HR from caffeine, fatigue and long runs.

    A few reservations. Is the adjustment from HR to power complex? And if I’m within Z2 power but HR is in Z3, doesn’t this potentially undermine the 80/20 system?

    Also aware that the Stryd isnt waterproof and concerned I’ll break it, as I run in the rain and bog trot on trails.

    I also see subscription might be involved which I’d rather not burn money on. Is there a cheaper or subscription free alternative?

    #16180
    David Warden
    Keymaster

    R,

    – Not complex, but not as easy as HR. It takes a bit of setup and adjustment, but it is a superior way to train. Almost all athletes who switch to power never go back.

    – If you test your HR LTHR and Power FTP at the same time, in the same test, you won’t have your HR and Power zones out of sync, they will have to line up as you have the same threshold from the same test. BUT…

    …Because HR is all over the place any given day for the exact same output, even if you test HR and Power on the same day, the next day your HR and Power zones will be misaligned because of caffeine, sleep, stress, temperature, time of day…

    In fact, this is why you should be switching to power, because all this time you THINK you’ve been in Zone 2 intensity, you’re often not because of the external influences that impact HR. So, you’ve made your own point for switching from HR to Power, because you WILL see HR all over the place one day to the next for a given Power output. That’s the nature of HR.

    – Don’t need the Stryd subscription, you can buy the device only. Send me an e-mail to david@8020endurance.com and I’ll get you a code for 15% off (available to anyone who reaches out to me individually).

    David

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