, Author at 80/20 Endurance

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Off road triathlon training plans #15306
    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Thank you so much for your advices

    in reply to: Off road triathlon training plans #15303
    hbaastrup
    Participant

    I already use my HR when I’m on the trail, as you suggest, but have problems to keep the given Zone for a training pass, typically on steep climbs. E.g. if I have a Running Foundation pass my HR easy goes into Zone X and Zone 3, even if I slow down, to a fast walk. Of cause I could slow down to a very slow walk or stop until my HR is in the requested zone, but that does not make lot of sense to me. Some of the terrain I’m running in has climbs on more than 20%. If you would be out on a RF pass, how would you handle next Km if you know it has 15-20% gradient?

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    @David: Yes – TrainingPeaks is for wimps, real engineers do there stuff by them self 😉 I also did my own analyse tools, so I could tweak them exactly as I like to analyse my data.


    @Claycurtis
    I have used MAF a lot in the past, but had to tweak the 180-formula. I’m almost 60, so my MAF HR should be around 120, compare this to my LTHR test that gave me a 148 BpM for the upper limit of zone 2, there are just 28 beats difference! Even my zone 1 HR is higher than 120. I contacted Phil Maffetone on the subject, but he never came back to me. In the end what I did was to feel me into the “right” MAF HR and ended with 130-140, for very slow runs.
    My sensation is the 180-formula is either too simple to cover older people or people there workout with a high HR, or I’m an abnormal person, I will not exclude this 😉 I think Mark Cucuzella, there has worked with Maffetone, nails it rather good in his book “Run for Your Life”: Be flexibly, if you are a fit person, you can use up to 200 instead of 180.
    Also, MAF does not take the intervals into the plan, and if you are not a very discipline person, you risk to blow the whole concept up. I was near to give up my base training because of boredom, until I listen to Stephen Seiler’s TED Talk and began to use MAF for base training and invented some interval training.
    The nice with 80/20 is they give you a plan with the whole stuff in: build up a base as MAF would do, and put in some HIT training too, this MAF does not gives you.
    The idea to use your MAF HR for the upper of Zone 2 is nice, but if you look at my numbers, my MAF HR (the 130-140) would be more in the middle of zone 2. I think there is a difference to do a test and have a formula, we all do not feed into a simple formula, so I trust the test more, even it does not tell me everything and can be very hard to do.
    Today I would advise any beginner to use MAF, but a more fit person I would direct to something else.
    Last we should not forget, MAF is not only HR, but also about diet, stress etc. and have, after my opinion, some very good principles here.

    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi David,

    Yes it is true, we have come a long way. Maybe my preference for HR is, I have used it so much in my running. Under all this comes, I do not have a power meter on my bike, in less than a month I hope to start to bike outside, so no power from my indoor trainer, and if I do not find a very good offer for a power meter, it will not be the first thing I buy, they are terribly expensive.

    Any case, your input has been interesting, very useful for me and I really appreciate it. I will continue to follow the 80/20 program, I have started on, and hope it will build up my bike aerobic base and help me to get some more speed out of my run, my swimming is still on survival level, but I hope I soon can apply the program there too.

    I don’t know if you had a look at what I have posted in the site above (http://hba.dynu.com/sport/workouts/), but if you still are interested in how the HR drift change, for a 60 year old man, while I progress through your program, I will continue to post.

    Thank you,
    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi David,

    Gosh – My running fitness does not translate into my cycling fitness – now I have to sit on that bike for years to come, and me there thought it would be a piece of cake to start biking 😉

    Without to be a doctor or biologist, I will still argue for the HR is a better indicator for what goes on inside me, than the power output I read on my power meter. Power tells me how much work my body does in the very moment, how much energy I transfer to the bike, seen from the bike. HR tells me something about my metabolism over a time period. Yes – the HR change all after how I am that very day, but I still will argue it is an expression of my metabolism: If I’m stressed, run on a hot summer day, or an evil coach sneak up behind me and say “boo!” so I almost got a heart attack, they are all cases where I have a higher metabolism. My question now is: If my metabolism goes up, do I risk to go out of my aerobic zone?
    If I keep my power the same on a cold or hot day, stressed or relaxed day etc. my HR is different, it is right my muscle did the same work, but did I get the same benefit to build up my aerobic base, if my HR entered zone-X on the hot stressed day?
    I think that is the base in my first question, what I observed was exactly this, my HR was in zone-X, third of the time when I should have worked in zone-2, while my power output was in zone-2 all the time, was this beneficial to build up my aerobic base?

    Now I have analysed and posted my latest foundation run, it was around an hour long. It is clear my pulse drift up until it hit a ceiling, just on the limit of my zone-2 HR, but the drift was from 132 to 148 BpM = 12%, so I asked myself do I calculate this right? I have used the start value just when I switched my effort (pace) from zone-1 to zone-2, would it be more correct to use a value 10 minutes into the zone-2 run, like we do when we do our threshold tests?
    To re-formulate the questions, which start value should I use to calculate the drift? The HR drift the whole time from I start running until it hits the ceiling or I stop.

    I think I understand the whole zone system as such, but have some problem to see how to merge the power I see on my bike with the HR I expected, but as I wrote, it might be a problem with the instrumentation I use.

    I know for most people the right effort it should be a feeling, and I think I have that feeling in my run sessions, but not in my bike sessions, I build up that feeling for my run sessions by using a heart rate monitor. I also have an other problem, as a data engineer I just love data and I can’t stop myself to collect them, analyse them, and try to understand them.

    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi David,
    First thank you for taking the time to look at this.

    A little about me: I have been running for more than 10 years, for the last couple of years I have spend lot of time on building my running aerobic base. I started to take up triathlon for around 1 1/2 year ago, and began to road biking – of course, so biking is rather new to me. My running aerobic base is, after my own opinion, not that bad, and I expect some of it would spill over to my biking, so I would not expect to wait for years to have some reasonable aerobic base on the bike too. I might be naive 😉

    I did an analysis on the latest Foundation ride I did, where I tried to keep the power constant, and got the following times in the different zone (see below), after my opinion there is something wrong here. I believe I should have spend the main time in the HR zone 2, as is – I spent a third of the time in zone X. This can after my opinion not be very 80/20 correct.
    I see your point with using the power instead of HR, as the power is instantly, while the HR always will be delayed, but in the end, it is the HR there tells what my body actually did, especial over a longer time.
    I also agree I should not be so fixed on all the measurements, but I use them to setup a feeling on what and where I should be when I do a workout, and HR has really helped me in my run workouts. To return to my age, things change and again I believe these measurements can help out, also I find it interesting to see how my body responds to all this.
    I begin to suspect my indoor trainer power meter is not very accurate, I do not have a power meter on my bike, so I use what my trainer can gives me, maybe it is better to use my HR in my workouts until I can find a way to check or calibrate my trainer.

    Heart rate zones:
    – Z1: 30 min
    – Z2: 29 min
    – ZX: 29 min
    – Z3: 5 min

    Power zones
    – Z1: 45 min
    – Z2: 48 min

    If I should describe the workout above using the RPE description, I would no way describe it as a Light workout, but something between Somewhat Hard to Hard. The end of the zone-2 part of the workout, I would definitely described as Hard.

    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi David,

    If we have to wait to I begin to do 2 hours rides, we have to wait well into April, as I’m still on the Level-0 program and plan to swift to the Level-1 program March 8, but I already have a clear drift in my 90 minutes foundation rides, the drift is rather linear over a ride, can’t they be used?

    Any case I will post them here: http://hba.dynu.com/sport/workouts/

    In this moment I do my bike workouts on an indoor trainer, so the environment temperature is rate constant on 20°C. My run workouts is done outside where the temperature vary a lot in this moment, even the drift is there too with a constant pace.

    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi Winoria,

    My personal experience is, on a hot day my heart rate is higher, for the same effort, than on a cold. I’m not so sure with the drift, but my sensation is the drift is higher too, maybe you David could confirm this?
    I believe it has to do with keeping me cool on a hot day. If I do an one hour run, I’m always is well hydrated when I hit the trail, if it is a hot day I will bring a small bottle of water with me, on a cold I will run without hydration, in both cases my heart rate will drift, I do believe the hydration count, but not as much as the environment temperature.

    In general I’m very much personal interested in how much age count in my training, as most study is done on much younger people than my age. Also I think there are ever more “aged” people there do sport at a certain level, so I find it a bit sad there is no more study on my age group and older.

    Any case, if anybody is interested to follow how my heart rate drift will I go, while I go through my new 80/20 program, I’m ready to post it some place.

    Regards,
    Henrik

    hbaastrup
    Participant

    Hi David,
    Tank you so much for your answer, it was very useful, I like I have to keep the effort constant at a level I feel good going even my HR is going up.

    I have another question on the HR drifting. I’m new to 80-20, but before I have used Phil Maffetone’s MAF at lot even with some frustrations, I have always had a problem with the 180-formula without any test. My HR has always drifted or when I tried to keep it constant, my pace has drifted. Any case I think my aerobic base is not that bad, but when you say that the HR drift should be under 3% for the ride I did, I think I’m a bit far off (my calculation tells me mine was around 7%).

    My question is: Would the drift become bigger with the age (I’m 60 years old)?

    By the way, are the numbers for the HR drifting the same for running?

    Regards,
    Henrik

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)